NDP Blogs cheer anti-democratic labour movement hecklers of Dion

Anti-democratic????  A bit harsh, but not surprising in my dealings with the Dipper rank and file in urban Toronto.Invited to this rally by Buzz Hargrove, the CAW rank and file responded by booing Dion.  Layton was enjoying himself seeing both Hargrove and Dion humiliated.Dion's handlers should have known that by not passing the anti-scab legislation, he was going to receive criticism from the labour movement.  That he was booed and heckled shows that the Liberals need to be more progressive when dealing with labour issues.It's called building the foundation of a new house.  Once the foundation was built then you can have an open house.  Otherwise, it looks more like an emperor walking with no clothes.        

As far as I’m concerned, yes.

Scott: I'll agree that some of the schadenfreude from a few of my fellow Blogging Dippers goes further than it probably should. But "anti-democratic" is a completely unfair description of the hecklers' actions: surely the right to free speech applies just as thoroughly to the workers in wanting to get their point across as it does to Dion in wanting to use the event for political gain.

If I were there, I don't think I'd heckle. But that's only because I'm rather meek individual in person and am awkward at a lot of protests, though I quite often attend them out of solidarity or concern.But calling the protesters anti-democratic because they're protesting the Liberals' vote against anti-scab legislation? That's ridiculous! This action isn't the same as the Cons in Parliament at all. In there, there are rules of decorum and an expectation that members should be able to ask and respond to questions without interruption. A rally is a totally different scenario and the goal here is public awareness of the issues facing workers. Obviously, the failure of the anti-scab legislation is going to be a big one, and Dion should be held accountable for his vote.So when, Scott, are protesters democratic and when are they anti-democratic, in your view? I ask this because ordinary people disrupting events and speaking out is really the essence of true, participatory democracy. The sort of democracy that's more than simple marking an "X" on a piece of paper every few years. Everyone listening quietly while the so-called "great leaders" imparted their wisdom from on high would be something, but hardly democracy.I can't help but thinking that if it were Stephen Harper that all youse guys would be all over this just as much, while the Blogging Tories would be writing posts pretty similar to yours. (Or maybe they'd be a little more on the vulgar side, I dunno.)

Yeah … you are way too sensitive on this …. not very cool.

I agree, it was classless.  We need less of this.  And we need fewer members of the ProgBlog Dipper Truth-Squad goose-stepping all around Liberal blogs everytime they smell blood in the water.  You're salivating over it on your blogs.  Isn't that enough?

Hell boys and girls, I had to listen to endless weeks of 'Taliban Jack' from Lib bloggers - then when Dion & May did their little 'Central Nova' kissy face, I had to listen to Lib bloggers blasting Jack on and on and on.Get thicker skin if you're gonna blog politics. I do NOT appreciate being attacked like this.

Gee, Leftdog.. you’re getting attacked, as in personally?

I like a lot of you NDP bloggers.. I really do, but one trait I’ve noted is that a fair # of you Dippers cannot tolerate any criticism, either of yourself or your party. The moral outrage that comes all the time can be a bit over the top, quite frankly, at times.

The FTQ will boo and heckle Stéphane Dion no matter what he does.  If those people spent half as much time working on labour issues as they do promoting Quebec independence, they would probably have a lot less to complain about.  

I feel like I'm an impartial observer in this leftist love-in, and my ruling is that to declare this undemocratic is nonsensical.  It's the labour unions bloody rally, they can choose who they want to speak at it, and who, if they are originally permitted to speak, should be shouted down if their opinions are contrary to the prevailing union "wisdom", to coin an oxymoron.  What definition of democracy are we working with here, Scott?   I don't even see how the formal definition of democracy can be in any way connected to a publicly held, non violent rally.   Please elaborate on the principles of democracy at issue here.I mean, if a large group of environmentalists, hippies and other ne'er do wells held a Kyoto rally (kidding, kind of), and shouted down Stephen Harper trying to explain his position, I have a feeling you'd be cheering their courage and dedication.  "Way to stand up to a bully!" you'd proclaim (hypothetically).  I doubt it would even occur to you to make a connection between that and democracy.That said, Dion deserves praise for at least having the jam to get up there under the circumstances, he knew it couldn't have ended well.  It's definitely not a situation that Harper would have put himself in, let alone any other government minister.  For once, I'm impressed with Dion, and oddly enough, it comes during one of his more obvious PR failures.By the way, not to let actual substance get in the way of your impassioned partisan defence of Dion's democratic values, but do you have an opinion on the actual legislation in question?  Care to step outside of the Liberal straightjacket and actually make an argument for or against a policy?

Olaf:

a) I’ve already said why I thought what happened was undemocratic. you’re a smart fella (normally). Please re-read if you need to refresh your memory.

b) If Harper was invited to speak at the hypothetical Kyoto rally, I certainly wouldn’t be cheering anyone shouting him down. Just because Harper’s goons shout everyone down in the QP doesn’t mean I think the favour should be returned.

c) Glad to see you’re praising Dion. I’ll mark that down in my notebook (May 30/07 - Olaf praises Dion).

d) I actually don’t have a position on that policy, to be honest. I was commenting on the heckling and booing and not allowing Dion to speak to an event he was invited to.. please dont’ try to issue a red herring, Olaf. You lower yourself to your more trollish Blogging Tory cohorts by doing so. And, I’ve already stepped out of my “Liberal straitjacket” to clarify to you at your own blog when you somehow read at my blog that that I was somehow supporting Jack Layton’s position on Afghanistan… so cut it out on saying I don’t have or take positions.

If I’ve been more irritating to you of late as you say at your blog, I can say the feeling is starting to get mutual.

Care to step outside of the Liberal straightjacket Olaf - Coming from a conservative blogger, I find this phrase particularly absurd.  Conservatives routinely point to dissent amongst Liberals as a sign of weakness and "evidence" of Dion's weak-kneed leadership (all of which is of course, a steaming pile of crap).  So what exactly do you mean by Liberal "straightjacket"?Your conjecture about Scott's reaction to Harper at a Kyoto rally notwithstanding, the original post was hardly an "impassioned partisan defence of Dion's democratic values".  Just an observation that childish, boorish behaviour by labour activists shouldn't be endorsed by NDP bloggers.  Undemocratic?  Maybe not.  But certainly not worthy of praise by anyone. 

Sorry about all the coding, I don't know what the problem is.  Am I the only one with this problem?  My (admittedly long) posts won't even separate into paragraphs, which makes them even more unreadable then they already are.

I'm kind of late to the party here but…  I understand your definition of democracy as an exchange of ideas, but as far as democracy applying in the context of representative government, I always thought that was the people telling politicians that are elected to represent them what they think, not politicians having the right to tell them their speech.  I mean, yes, I want politicians with ideas, I want politicians to be leaders, but they are foremost in my mind, servants of the people.  And I think it's purely democracy when angry people voice their opposition to the leader of a very influential party, whether it be with class or not is besides the point.  And I'd say that about anyone, whether it be Layton, Dion, my own MP Yvon Godin, I mean, I like Dion, I used to hate him, then I met him for a policy brainstorming session at Laval University and he's great, doesn't strike me as a PM, but a very bright guy and you quickly learn to respect him for that.  But if you piss off labour, don't expect them to just roll over when you say "Down with Harper!"But one thing I noticed in the video, maybe I'd be a horrible politician, but why does he just continue his speech?  If that was me up there, and they'd start booing me, I wouldn't just continue my speech as if nothing happened, ignoring all of that (wouldn't that be undemocratic too?).  I'd be like "Woah, woah, wait, what's all this booing about?  Anti-scab?  You guys want to talk about anti-scab legislation?  Alright, let's do that for a minute."  I mean, I'm not opposed to anti-scab legislation, but if I was, I'd try to present my arguments most convincingly to a crowd of labour activists (which is you know, impossible, but I'm always up for a challenge)  But just stand there and keep talking?  Meh.  Not too impressive.

My God, Scott, are you now trying to dictate who speaks and when beyond your little aggregate borders?!

The "classless" workers will continue to protest the elites. Your
narrow view of democracy is laughable. Do you not get that who gets to
exchage ideas and who gets to be heard is determined largely by the
almighty dollar? Are the Liberals prepared to let democracy prevail?
History would suggest otherwise. The voices of Canadians in all sorts
of Royal Commission reports have been ignored for decades as policies
favouring elites have been advanced.

"Undemocratic". Unbelieveable!

I just don't get how the left doesn't realize that the real enemy of their ideas and wishes for Canada is Harper.  Why would they divide the opposition to him unless they actually think they are going to win an election?  Never happened so far.  The NDP and the Liberals and the Greens should have coalition talks and get on with the real business of getting rid of the fascists that are slowly ruining our country.

Let's not forget that Dion changed his mind about the anti-scab bill at the 11th hour. The Liberals supported the anti-scab legislation all the way until 3rd reading. There is an intense feeling of betrayal in the Labour Movement as a result. Before you go around calling people "classless", maybe you should consider that the level of anger that was exhibited may have been totally warranted.As for being undemocratic…it was the Labour leadership that invited Dion. By booing him off stage, the members were expressing their discontent over the leadership's decision to have Dion there. That's what grassroots democracy is all about.Not everyone gets a chance at that microphone, Scott. Sometimes people have to band together and, oh my, even shout to get thier voices heard. I am proud to be a blogger who stood (well actually, blogged) in solidarity with the workers at that rally.

"I'm going to slip into my 'Liberal bias' mode"

Yeah, you might want to just put that as a disclaimer as a permanent feature up top of your blog :p

I agree that shouting down people is childish; I don't know if it's
anti-democratic. It's distateful regardless.  If you are sincere
about this as a general rule, then I agree with you, but somehow I
suspect you wouldn't care so much if it wasn't a Liberal being shouted
down - if it were Harper, for example, you would probably have cited it
as evidence of his unpopularity, rather than complained about him being
drowned out.

Crush the unions.  I am sick and tored of going to a place where the workers are unionized. Apparently just showing up at work guarentees them all the benefits one could want and constant pay raises making services and good rediculously expensive.  Is there some sort of provision that requires 90% of them to lean on things to keep them from collapsing?Voting against anti-scab legislation is good. These companys need to be able to stay afloat WITH employees so the lazy unionized workers will have a job to return to after another of their periodic self induced vacations.Horrible behaviors on part of unionized workers: TTC employees don't show up for work because traffic was too bad to DRIVE to work. Nor can there employees work with any number other than than 5 or 10 when selling loose tokens. They yell at you if you ask for anything different. Ask for anything else they freak out, either because they can't count or don't want to work.Any post office will have 1 or 2 staff working the massive lineups while three stand around drinking their coffee and joking. If they don't want to take their job seriously, get a new one.They view getting a unionized job as tantamount to retiring early. guaranteed income, guaranteed benefits, guaranteed job security but provide you with no guarentee that they will actually be working or productive. Forgive me if I have no symapathy for them, as they never reciprocate concern since its not in their contract.No surprise with the dippers though, if they had thier way everyone would get paid for doing nothing. Mind you that would probably be 100 dollars a month since thestate would take care of evrything else. Do the dippers not understand our current economic reality?

Oh come on.  No Liberal (or Liberal supporter) gets to play the holier-than-thou routine when it comes to heckling.  The party of Marlene Jennings sets up a clinic on disruption and disrespect for democracy in the Commons everyday. For eons, Liberals have told voters they will do something (in this case, vote in favour of a ban on scabs) and then done the opposite.  This kind of treachery comes at a price.  All this "we are the victims" talk over Dion’s rebuke is just more proof that the Liberal Party just isn't accustomed to paying that price yet.

I approve of your disapproval of my comments re: Dion being booed.