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	<title>Comments on: The Ontario Citizen&#8217;s Assembly: In Their Own Words</title>
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	<link>http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2007/07/27/the-ontario-citizens-assembly-in-their-own-words/</link>
	<description>My personal opinions on social and political issues from a progressive standpoint.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Richard Lung</title>
		<link>http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2007/07/27/the-ontario-citizens-assembly-in-their-own-words/#comment-6563</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Lung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ive written a couple of web pages on this, the more recent being:
http://www.voting.ukscientists.com/b2v.html

The Ontario CA decision for MMP was a logical outcome of a (false) official line that there are "trade-offs" between all voting systems. 
Hence the choice of a mixed system. 

The independent written evidence to the Ontario CA mostly ( 800 out of 1000 submissions) came in in january 2007. The crucial vote on which system to model was held in the first meeting after Xmas in mid-february, effectively guillotining the spread of a different point of view.

Assembly opinion was still in flux when the schedule came to an end, (with 1 april vote between MMP and STV) so we will never know whether support would have continued to shift from MMP to STV, as happened with the 11-month British Columbia CA.&lt;div class="comment-remix-meta"&gt;&lt;a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6563','Richard Lung'); return false;"&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  - &lt;a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('6563','Richard Lung','Ive written a couple of web pages on this, the more recent being:\r\nhttp:\/\/www.voting.ukscientists.com\/b2v.html\r\n\r\nThe Ontario CA decision for MMP was a logical outcome of a (false) official line that there are \&#34;trade-offs\&#34; between all voting systems. \r\nHence the choice of a mixed system. \r\n\r\nThe independent written evidence to the Ontario CA mostly ( 800 out of 1000 submissions) came in in january 2007. The crucial vote on which system to model was held in the first meeting after Xmas in mid-february, effectively guillotining the spread of a different point of view.\r\n\r\nAssembly opinion was still in flux when the schedule came to an end, (with 1 april vote between MMP and STV) so we will never know whether support would have continued to shift from MMP to STV, as happened with the 11-month British Columbia CA.'); return false;"&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ive written a couple of web pages on this, the more recent being:<br />
<a href="http://www.voting.ukscientists.com/b2v.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.voting.ukscientists.com/b2v.html</a></p>
<p>The Ontario CA decision for MMP was a logical outcome of a (false) official line that there are &#8220;trade-offs&#8221; between all voting systems.<br />
Hence the choice of a mixed system. </p>
<p>The independent written evidence to the Ontario CA mostly ( 800 out of 1000 submissions) came in in january 2007. The crucial vote on which system to model was held in the first meeting after Xmas in mid-february, effectively guillotining the spread of a different point of view.</p>
<p>Assembly opinion was still in flux when the schedule came to an end, (with 1 april vote between MMP and STV) so we will never know whether support would have continued to shift from MMP to STV, as happened with the 11-month British Columbia CA.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6563','Richard Lung'); return false;">Reply</a>  - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('6563','Richard Lung','Ive written a couple of web pages on this, the more recent being:\r\nhttp:\/\/www.voting.ukscientists.com\/b2v.html\r\n\r\nThe Ontario CA decision for MMP was a logical outcome of a (false) official line that there are \&quot;trade-offs\&quot; between all voting systems. \r\nHence the choice of a mixed system. \r\n\r\nThe independent written evidence to the Ontario CA mostly ( 800 out of 1000 submissions) came in in january 2007. The crucial vote on which system to model was held in the first meeting after Xmas in mid-february, effectively guillotining the spread of a different point of view.\r\n\r\nAssembly opinion was still in flux when the schedule came to an end, (with 1 april vote between MMP and STV) so we will never know whether support would have continued to shift from MMP to STV, as happened with the 11-month British Columbia CA.'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: stageleft</title>
		<link>http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2007/07/27/the-ontario-citizens-assembly-in-their-own-words/#comment-6291</link>
		<dc:creator>stageleft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:59:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2007/07/27/the-ontario-citizens-assembly-in-their-own-words/#comment-6291</guid>
		<description>Good propaganda video, at least they were somewhat honest about the party being the most important part of the whole scheme. 

Phrases like &lt;em&gt;&#34;Effective parties&#34;&lt;/em&gt; beginning descriptive sentences and, my personal favorite by the way, &lt;em&gt;&#34;Your first vote the one for a party......&#34;&lt;/em&gt; are pretty good indicators of what is front, centre, and of primary importance.

The &#34;where the list members come from&#34; blurb gave me a chuckle

&lt;em&gt;&#34;Elections Ontario will make the lists public so parties can show voters that their lists were created in a fair and open way.&#34;&lt;/em&gt;

How will making the lists public show that they were created in a fair and open way? As (the federal) Liberals recently found out with Ed Corrigan getting your name even inked to a potential list of candidates can&#39;t be accomplished in a fair and open way, and the Michael Fortier gift gives us more than a small hint at how Conservatives will view these seats - they will be gifts and rewards to the party faithful.

The clip goes on to say
&lt;em&gt;
&#34;The list members give you a new kind of representation.&#34;&lt;/em&gt;

Again, you have to give them credit for their honesty, it will give Ontario a &#34;new kind of representation&#34;, one where the members will not even have to pretend that the party who put them in their seats is not who they are responsible to first and foremost.

&lt;em&gt;&#34;These members could concentrate on issues that matter to different regions of Ontario...&#34;&lt;/em&gt;

Yes, they could, but the big question is, given who they will owe their position of privilege and perks to, will they?

From the look of their report they didn&#39;t give any consideration to ideas that do not include political parties - this is simply another unsupportable way of giving additional power and authority to the &lt;em&gt;the party&lt;/em&gt; instead of the people they pretend to represent.&lt;div class="comment-remix-meta"&gt;&lt;a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6291','stageleft'); return false;"&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  - &lt;a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('6291','stageleft','Good propaganda video, at least they were somewhat honest about the party being the most important part of the whole scheme. \r\n\r\nPhrases like &#60;em&#62;&#38;quot;Effective parties&#38;quot;&#60;\/em&#62; beginning descriptive sentences and, my personal favorite by the way, &#60;em&#62;&#38;quot;Your first vote the one for a party......&#38;quot;&#60;\/em&#62; are pretty good indicators of what is front, centre, and of primary importance.\r\n\r\nThe &#38;quot;where the list members come from&#38;quot; blurb gave me a chuckle\r\n\r\n&#60;em&#62;&#38;quot;Elections Ontario will make the lists public so parties can show voters that their lists were created in a fair and open way.&#38;quot;&#60;\/em&#62;\r\n\r\nHow will making the lists public show that they were created in a fair and open way? As (the federal) Liberals recently found out with Ed Corrigan getting your name even inked to a potential list of candidates can&#38;#39;t be accomplished in a fair and open way, and the Michael Fortier gift gives us more than a small hint at how Conservatives will view these seats - they will be gifts and rewards to the party faithful.\r\n\r\nThe clip goes on to say\r\n&#60;em&#62;\r\n&#38;quot;The list members give you a new kind of representation.&#38;quot;&#60;\/em&#62;\r\n\r\nAgain, you have to give them credit for their honesty, it will give Ontario a &#38;quot;new kind of representation&#38;quot;, one where the members will not even have to pretend that the party who put them in their seats is not who they are responsible to first and foremost.\r\n\r\n&#60;em&#62;&#38;quot;These members could concentrate on issues that matter to different regions of Ontario...&#38;quot;&#60;\/em&#62;\r\n\r\nYes, they could, but the big question is, given who they will owe their position of privilege and perks to, will they?\r\n\r\nFrom the look of their report they didn&#38;#39;t give any consideration to ideas that do not include political parties - this is simply another unsupportable way of giving additional power and authority to the &#60;em&#62;the party&#60;\/em&#62; instead of the people they pretend to represent.'); return false;"&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good propaganda video, at least they were somewhat honest about the party being the most important part of the whole scheme. </p>
<p>Phrases like <em>&quot;Effective parties&quot;</em> beginning descriptive sentences and, my personal favorite by the way, <em>&quot;Your first vote the one for a party&#8230;&#8230;&quot;</em> are pretty good indicators of what is front, centre, and of primary importance.</p>
<p>The &quot;where the list members come from&quot; blurb gave me a chuckle</p>
<p><em>&quot;Elections Ontario will make the lists public so parties can show voters that their lists were created in a fair and open way.&quot;</em></p>
<p>How will making the lists public show that they were created in a fair and open way? As (the federal) Liberals recently found out with Ed Corrigan getting your name even inked to a potential list of candidates can&#39;t be accomplished in a fair and open way, and the Michael Fortier gift gives us more than a small hint at how Conservatives will view these seats - they will be gifts and rewards to the party faithful.</p>
<p>The clip goes on to say<br />
<em><br />
&quot;The list members give you a new kind of representation.&quot;</em></p>
<p>Again, you have to give them credit for their honesty, it will give Ontario a &quot;new kind of representation&quot;, one where the members will not even have to pretend that the party who put them in their seats is not who they are responsible to first and foremost.</p>
<p><em>&quot;These members could concentrate on issues that matter to different regions of Ontario&#8230;&quot;</em></p>
<p>Yes, they could, but the big question is, given who they will owe their position of privilege and perks to, will they?</p>
<p>From the look of their report they didn&#39;t give any consideration to ideas that do not include political parties - this is simply another unsupportable way of giving additional power and authority to the <em>the party</em> instead of the people they pretend to represent.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6291','stageleft'); return false;">Reply</a>  - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('6291','stageleft','Good propaganda video, at least they were somewhat honest about the party being the most important part of the whole scheme. \r\n\r\nPhrases like &lt;em&gt;&amp;quot;Effective parties&amp;quot;&lt;\/em&gt; beginning descriptive sentences and, my personal favorite by the way, &lt;em&gt;&amp;quot;Your first vote the one for a party......&amp;quot;&lt;\/em&gt; are pretty good indicators of what is front, centre, and of primary importance.\r\n\r\nThe &amp;quot;where the list members come from&amp;quot; blurb gave me a chuckle\r\n\r\n&lt;em&gt;&amp;quot;Elections Ontario will make the lists public so parties can show voters that their lists were created in a fair and open way.&amp;quot;&lt;\/em&gt;\r\n\r\nHow will making the lists public show that they were created in a fair and open way? As (the federal) Liberals recently found out with Ed Corrigan getting your name even inked to a potential list of candidates can&amp;#39;t be accomplished in a fair and open way, and the Michael Fortier gift gives us more than a small hint at how Conservatives will view these seats - they will be gifts and rewards to the party faithful.\r\n\r\nThe clip goes on to say\r\n&lt;em&gt;\r\n&amp;quot;The list members give you a new kind of representation.&amp;quot;&lt;\/em&gt;\r\n\r\nAgain, you have to give them credit for their honesty, it will give Ontario a &amp;quot;new kind of representation&amp;quot;, one where the members will not even have to pretend that the party who put them in their seats is not who they are responsible to first and foremost.\r\n\r\n&lt;em&gt;&amp;quot;These members could concentrate on issues that matter to different regions of Ontario...&amp;quot;&lt;\/em&gt;\r\n\r\nYes, they could, but the big question is, given who they will owe their position of privilege and perks to, will they?\r\n\r\nFrom the look of their report they didn&amp;#39;t give any consideration to ideas that do not include political parties - this is simply another unsupportable way of giving additional power and authority to the &lt;em&gt;the party&lt;\/em&gt; instead of the people they pretend to represent.'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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