Comments on: My particular reasons for voting no to the Cons motion on Afghanistan http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/ My personal opinions on social and political issues from a progressive standpoint. Tue, 07 Oct 2008 09:03:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Critical Brain Candy » Blog Archive » Questions about Canadas mission in Afghanistan http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13352 Critical Brain Candy » Blog Archive » Questions about Canadas mission in Afghanistan Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:16:01 +0000 http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13352 [...] Some good thoughts are here: The Liberals purported Afghanistan amendments look reasonable. and My particular reasons for voting no to the Cons motion on Afghanistan [...]<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('13352','Critical Brain Candy &raquo; Blog Archive &raquo; Questions about Canadas mission in Afghanistan'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('13352','Critical Brain Candy &raquo; Blog Archive &raquo; Questions about Canadas mission in Afghanistan','&#91;...&#93; Some good thoughts are here: The Liberals purported Afghanistan amendments look reasonable. and My particular reasons for voting no to the Cons motion on Afghanistan &#91;...&#93;'); return false;">Quote</a></div> [...] Some good thoughts are here: The Liberals purported Afghanistan amendments look reasonable. and My particular reasons for voting no to the Cons motion on Afghanistan [...]
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]]> By: j http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13341 j Tue, 12 Feb 2008 06:39:10 +0000 http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13341 Hm. Here's a topical aside: I met an Afghani who was once close to the Taliban. They were in the business of buying his crops. "I know you're trying to help," he said to me, "and a few Afghans know this too. But you're not. It's not your fault. When the Taliban is paying you to live, and then you see white men with guns walking around, who do you think you're going to believe? Who do you think you'll support?" The same way Conservatives are trying to earn your support by cutting taxes, the Taliban earn the support of average Afghans by buying their crops. For this reason, the Taliban are favoured in political talk around the Afghan "family dinner table." This "favour" around the dinner table sometimes turn into into blind ideological enthusiasm. Blind ideological enthusiasm. Sound familiar?<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('13341','j'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('13341','j','Hm. Here\'s a topical aside: \r\n\r\nI met an Afghani who was once close to the Taliban. They were in the business of buying his crops. \r\n\r\n&quot;I know you\'re trying to help,&quot; he said to me, &quot;and a few Afghans know this too. But you\'re not. It\'s not your fault. When the Taliban is paying you to live, and then you see white men with guns walking around, who do you think you\'re going to believe? Who do you think you\'ll support?&quot; \r\n\r\n The same way Conservatives are trying to earn your support by cutting taxes, the Taliban earn the support of average Afghans by buying their crops. For this reason, the Taliban are favoured in political talk around the Afghan &quot;family dinner table.&quot; \r\n \r\nThis &quot;favour&quot; around the dinner table sometimes turn into into blind ideological enthusiasm. \r\n\r\nBlind ideological enthusiasm. Sound familiar?'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Hm. Here’s a topical aside:

I met an Afghani who was once close to the Taliban. They were in the business of buying his crops.

"I know you’re trying to help," he said to me, "and a few Afghans know this too. But you’re not. It’s not your fault. When the Taliban is paying you to live, and then you see white men with guns walking around, who do you think you’re going to believe? Who do you think you’ll support?"

The same way Conservatives are trying to earn your support by cutting taxes, the Taliban earn the support of average Afghans by buying their crops. For this reason, the Taliban are favoured in political talk around the Afghan "family dinner table."

This "favour" around the dinner table sometimes turn into into blind ideological enthusiasm.

Blind ideological enthusiasm. Sound familiar?

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]]> By: Sockeye http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13337 Sockeye Tue, 12 Feb 2008 01:15:22 +0000 http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13337 Money , Peter , it's all about money. To hell with Peacekeeping fix the dam Health Care system. And while we're at it reform the Government & the Monetary system.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('13337','Sockeye'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('13337','Sockeye','Money , Peter , it\'s all about money. To hell with Peacekeeping fix the dam Health Care system.\r\n\r\nAnd while we\'re at it reform the Government &amp; the Monetary system.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Money , Peter , it’s all about money. To hell with Peacekeeping fix the dam Health Care system.

And while we’re at it reform the Government & the Monetary system.

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]]> By: ALW http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13334 ALW Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:57:46 +0000 http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13334 Your two key arguments, Scott, seem to be that (a) Canada has "done it's part, and (b) that we don't want to sign up for a "never-ending mission". With respect to (a), we most certainly have done our part - we've done a lot more than our part, in fact. But that doesn't answer the question: if we now leave, having done our part, will it makes things better in Afghanistan? Either you believe it will, or you are saying that you really don't care if it makes things worse. With respect to (b) I am curious as to which types of armed conflicts have end dates to them. Isn't the very idea of setting deadlines to solve what amounts to a civil war, a strange idea? I am asking these questions in good faith. Perhaps someone can answer them.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('13334','ALW'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('13334','ALW','Your two key arguments, Scott, seem to be that (a) Canada has &quot;done it\'s part, and (b) that we don\'t want to sign up for a &quot;never-ending mission&quot;.\r\nWith respect to (a), we most certainly have done our part - we\'ve done a lot more than our part, in fact. But that doesn\'t answer the question: if we now leave, having done our part, will it makes things better in Afghanistan? Either you believe it will, or you are saying that you really don\'t care if it makes things worse.\r\nWith respect to (b) I am curious as to which types of armed conflicts have end dates to them. Isn\'t the very idea of setting deadlines to solve what amounts to a civil war, a strange idea?\r\n\r\nI am asking these questions in good faith. Perhaps someone can answer them.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Your two key arguments, Scott, seem to be that (a) Canada has "done it’s part, and (b) that we don’t want to sign up for a "never-ending mission".
With respect to (a), we most certainly have done our part - we’ve done a lot more than our part, in fact. But that doesn’t answer the question: if we now leave, having done our part, will it makes things better in Afghanistan? Either you believe it will, or you are saying that you really don’t care if it makes things worse.
With respect to (b) I am curious as to which types of armed conflicts have end dates to them. Isn’t the very idea of setting deadlines to solve what amounts to a civil war, a strange idea?

I am asking these questions in good faith. Perhaps someone can answer them.

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]]> By: Aarons Beard http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13327 Aarons Beard Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:29:12 +0000 http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13327 Let me rephrase to make the point clearer. Exagerating the threat posed by the Taliban will create an unresolvable violent conflict lasting indefinitely into the future. If your aim is to help the sick and poor, finding a way out of the counter-insurgency war is the place to start. That would immediately improve their lives.    <div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('13327','Aarons Beard'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('13327','Aarons Beard','Let me rephrase to make the point clearer.\r\n\r\nExagerating the threat posed by the Taliban will create an unresolvable violent conflict lasting indefinitely into the future. If your aim is to help the sick and poor, finding a way out of the counter-insurgency war is the place to start. That would immediately improve their lives.    '); return false;">Quote</a></div> Let me rephrase to make the point clearer.

Exagerating the threat posed by the Taliban will create an unresolvable violent conflict lasting indefinitely into the future. If your aim is to help the sick and poor, finding a way out of the counter-insurgency war is the place to start. That would immediately improve their lives.    

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]]> By: Peter http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13326 Peter Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:26:08 +0000 http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13326 Aarons - I said taliban not the entire Arab world.  HUGE difference. (German Christians vs the Confessing Church)<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('13326','Peter'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('13326','Peter','Aarons - I said taliban not the entire Arab world.  HUGE difference.\r\n\r\n(German Christians vs the Confessing Church)'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Aarons - I said taliban not the entire Arab world.  HUGE difference.

(German Christians vs the Confessing Church)

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]]> By: Aarons Beard http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13325 Aarons Beard Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:22:43 +0000 http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13325 "We must ask what are the motives of the taliban.  It is to convert the world to believe what they believe."  -Peter Are you kidding me? Rightly or wrongly, there is alot of anger in the Arab world directed at the West, but who believes that they want to force us to convert to Islam? Really, Peter, that is a dangerous premise that completely obscures the actual problem. You need to take off the xenophobic blindfold because you are going down the wrong path.     <div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('13325','Aarons Beard'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('13325','Aarons Beard','&quot;We must ask what are the motives of the taliban.  It is to convert the world to believe what they believe.&quot;  -Peter\r\n\r\nAre you kidding me?\r\n\r\nRightly or wrongly, there is alot of anger in the Arab world directed at the West, but who believes that they want to force us to convert to Islam? Really, Peter, that is a dangerous premise that completely obscures the actual problem. You need to take off the xenophobic blindfold because you are going down the wrong path.     '); return false;">Quote</a></div> "We must ask what are the motives of the taliban.  It is to convert the world to believe what they believe."  -Peter

Are you kidding me?

Rightly or wrongly, there is alot of anger in the Arab world directed at the West, but who believes that they want to force us to convert to Islam? Really, Peter, that is a dangerous premise that completely obscures the actual problem. You need to take off the xenophobic blindfold because you are going down the wrong path.     

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]]> By: Scott Tribe http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13324 Scott Tribe Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:07:08 +0000 http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13324 Peter, you sound distressingly like the US Republican neo-cons and their presidential candidate John McCain, who advocates staying in Iraq 100 years if necessary. I don't see much different from your talking points then from those folks.   Harper and his Cons supporters have turned Afghanistan into their version of Iraq with all the cheapshot partisan stuff and the "either you support the troops or you don't" crap that they borrowed from Dubya and Cheney.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('13324','Scott Tribe'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('13324','Scott Tribe','Peter, you sound distressingly like the US Republican neo-cons and their presidential candidate John McCain, who advocates staying in Iraq 100 years if necessary. I don\'t see much different from your talking points then from those folks.   \r\n\r\nHarper and his Cons supporters have turned Afghanistan into their version of Iraq with all the cheapshot partisan stuff and the &quot;either you support the troops or you don\'t&quot; crap that they borrowed from Dubya and Cheney.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Peter, you sound distressingly like the US Republican neo-cons and their presidential candidate John McCain, who advocates staying in Iraq 100 years if necessary. I don’t see much different from your talking points then from those folks.  

Harper and his Cons supporters have turned Afghanistan into their version of Iraq with all the cheapshot partisan stuff and the "either you support the troops or you don’t" crap that they borrowed from Dubya and Cheney.

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]]> By: Peter http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13322 Peter Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:46:26 +0000 http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13322 We must ask what are the motives of the taliban.  It is to convert the world to believe what they believe.  This means no to everything.  No education for women, no medicine for the sick, no support for the poor, ect.  I cannot see a stable Afghanistan with even a single taliban member living in that nation.  We must help the poor, the needy and all others who need our help.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('13322','Peter'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('13322','Peter','We must ask what are the motives of the taliban.  It is to convert the world to believe what they believe.  This means no to everything.  No education for women, no medicine for the sick, no support for the poor, ect.  I cannot see a stable Afghanistan with even a single taliban member living in that nation.  We must help the poor, the needy and all others who need our help.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> We must ask what are the motives of the taliban.  It is to convert the world to believe what they believe.  This means no to everything.  No education for women, no medicine for the sick, no support for the poor, ect.  I cannot see a stable Afghanistan with even a single taliban member living in that nation.  We must help the poor, the needy and all others who need our help.
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]]> By: Aarons Beard http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13321 Aarons Beard Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:20:52 +0000 http://scottdiatribe.gluemeat.com/2008/02/10/my-particular-reasons-for-voting-no-to-the-cons-motion-on-afghanistan/#comment-13321 Peter, It just does not seem realistic what you are saying. I think we need to start asking ourselves what Afghanistan would look like if it were to be stable. The Taliban are intimately allied with the Pashtun tribe. The Taliban are an unsavoury bunch, but a stable government in this country cannot exclude the Pashtun. Think about it. What does fighting a counter-insurgency war for another 5, 10, 15 years bring to the table other than to potentially exacerbate the conflict. Support for the counter-insurgency is a little more than a stalling manoevre by a government that fails to plan for a resolution to the war.    You want to "get the job done" but you have not even begun to conceptualize what "the job" is. I don't want Canada to labour on in futility on behalf of a false goal. The vague idea of killing all the Taliban and subjugating the Pashtun is naive as well as dangerous.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('13321','Aarons Beard'); return false;">Reply</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('13321','Aarons Beard','Peter, \r\n\r\nIt just does not seem realistic what you are saying. I think we need to start asking ourselves what Afghanistan would look like if it were to be stable. The Taliban are intimately allied with the Pashtun tribe. The Taliban are an unsavoury bunch, but a stable government in this country cannot exclude the Pashtun. Think about it. What does fighting a counter-insurgency war for another 5, 10, 15 years bring to the table other than to potentially exacerbate the conflict. Support for the counter-insurgency is a little more than a stalling manoevre by a government that fails to plan for a resolution to the war.   \r\n\r\nYou want to &quot;get the job done&quot; but you have not even begun to conceptualize what &quot;the job&quot; is. I don\'t want Canada to labour on in futility on behalf of a false goal. The vague idea of killing all the Taliban and subjugating the Pashtun is naive as well as dangerous.'); return false;">Quote</a></div> Peter,

It just does not seem realistic what you are saying. I think we need to start asking ourselves what Afghanistan would look like if it were to be stable. The Taliban are intimately allied with the Pashtun tribe. The Taliban are an unsavoury bunch, but a stable government in this country cannot exclude the Pashtun. Think about it. What does fighting a counter-insurgency war for another 5, 10, 15 years bring to the table other than to potentially exacerbate the conflict. Support for the counter-insurgency is a little more than a stalling manoevre by a government that fails to plan for a resolution to the war.   

You want to "get the job done" but you have not even begun to conceptualize what "the job" is. I don’t want Canada to labour on in futility on behalf of a false goal. The vague idea of killing all the Taliban and subjugating the Pashtun is naive as well as dangerous.

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